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CRAIG19

When the eagles are silent, the parrots begin to jabber.
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Video: Ford's most advanced assembly plant operates in rural Brazil

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This is the kind of lean plant Ford would like to bulid in the United states. Is it any wonder why we cant compete with the foreign car companies? Look out UAW. All our automobiles will soon be built outside of the US and it will be the fault of big labor because of their greed and antiquated business model. Watch the video!

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{"commentId":4230953,"authorDomain":"craig19"}

I should say Ford's antiquated business model in the United States because the union wont allow them to modernize out of fear of layoffs.

{"commentId":4230953,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"craig19"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#1 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:46 AM EST
{"commentId":4231344,"authorDomain":"mwhitley5562"}

Congress should see this and consider it when making their decision on the bailout. 

{"commentId":4231344,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"mwhitley5562"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#2 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 10:41 AM EST
{"commentId":4231709,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

The UAW has repeatedly made concessions that have helped companies like Ford work toward solvency. What this piece is condoning is a dramatic drop in the fair wage that is possible under the UAW's protection from bloated management.

Remember that unions protect the worker. The Labor Movement is to thank for the weekend, the 40-hour week, basic worker benefits, workplace safety standards, and many other labor guarantees we now have in America. Are you in a position to give up those guarantees in your workplace?

I don't really understand the term "lean" as it is used here. When our bodies are lean, we assume that means health. When the means of production in a business is lean, it only amounts to health if the workers are paid a living wage. It makes the least sense for America if the workers are forced to become lean while upper management becomes fatter and fatter.

Additionally, are we to believe that a plant like that in the U.S. would mean a better life for the workers? The only job of the UAW is to advocate for a better life for workers. Driving down wages on the line will not bring that about.

Finally, yes; the Congress should hear about this and consider making laws that would provide incentives for Ford and others to base their operations in the U.S.

{"commentId":4231709,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
  • 1 vote
Reply#3 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:38 AM EST
{"commentId":4232073,"authorDomain":"craig19"}

This is the exact attitude that is destroying businesses in this country. I will concede the fact that the American worker owes much to the unions but where will it all stop? Is $75.00 an hour in wages and benefite enough? Full pay and benefits after retirement? C'mon. Ford isnt in the business of providing jobs. They are in business to make money while providing a product that people need. Jobs are a by-product. American car companies, in order to compete with Japanese autos are forced to sell their cars at a price where there is no profit margin or it is razor thin. They are just not making money on their cars.

{"commentId":4232073,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"craig19"}
    #3.1 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:26 PM EST
    {"commentId":4232120,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

    Ah, no. The attitude that is destroying business in America is the attitude of greed, and stripping away laws that protect the Middle Class. Throughout our history, a strong working class has meant prosperity.

    And please look at the actual salary range of the line worker. There are no line workers that are making $75/hour. Your information is inaccurate.

    They are in business to make money while providing a product that people need.

    Unfortunately, corporations like Ford have put their priorities in this order exactly. Late 19th Century and early 20th Century industries began to set a code of ethics that has all but been abandoned in the rush to "Globalize", which is just an excuse to pay indecently low wages to desperate, oppressed workers in foreign countries.

    {"commentId":4232120,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
    • 1 vote
    #3.2 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:34 PM EST
    {"commentId":4232364,"authorDomain":"craig19"}

    "Ah, no. The attitude that is destroying business in America is the attitude of greed, and stripping away laws that protect the Middle Class. Throughout our history, a strong working class has meant prosperity."

    Can you give some exaples of some of these laws that were stripped away destroying the middle class?

    {"commentId":4232364,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"craig19"}
    • 1 vote
    #3.3 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:13 PM EST
    {"commentId":4235759,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

    Craig,

    Here's one example just coming up. I don't have time just to do your research for you, buddy, but I recommend working directly with some of the information that the AFL-CIO has, along with the UAW itself. Look at the pattern: as business was deregulated further and further, the benefits of hard work were shrinking.

    Good luck.

    {"commentId":4235759,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
      #3.4 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:33 PM EST
      {"commentId":4239992,"authorDomain":"craig19"}

      You liberals should learn to dialogue without being insolent and sarcastic. You cant all be Al Frankens and Michael Moores you know. You are asking me to research something that may not exist. You made the claim, now I am asking you to provide me with the examples of these laws that strip away protection of the middle class. In a socialist society we will all be "lower middle class". Under a capitalist society, if you have ambition and a double-digit IQ, you have the opportunity to make something of yourself. If you are a clerk in a 7-11 and a socialist, you will always be a clerk in a 7-11. If you are a clerk in a 7-11 and a capitalist you can franchise one of your own stores someday.

      {"commentId":4239992,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"craig19"}
      • 1 vote
      #3.5 - Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:35 PM EST
      {"commentId":4249013,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

      I did give you an example... and I don't remember saying that I was a liberal... hmmm. Read the example, and let's talk some more.

      Oh, and it is just not true that a socialist society deprives people of the opportunities to advance. That is one reason I don't really want to do your research for you. You're making statements that have no real basis in fact. That would be a lot of remedial work for me to do on your behalf.

      But let's do discuss that example...

      {"commentId":4249013,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
        #3.6 - Mon Dec 1, 2008 3:48 PM EST
        Reply
        {"commentId":4231942,"authorDomain":"me2berry2000"}

        Without pressure there is no progress. Ford is threatening bankruptcy,maybe these economic pressures will be enough to build a better product, company and business plan.  I hope so for the sake of the millions who depend on the auto industry to feed their families.

        {"commentId":4231942,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"me2berry2000"}
          Reply#4 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:10 PM EST
          {"commentId":4233049,"authorDomain":"mwestenfelder"}

          Camacari is an excellent plant but it is not the UAW's fault that the plant is in Brazil.

          The reason is that it is one of Ford's latest plants and a greenfield design with modern production requirements integrated into the very design of the plant.

          Installing the same in a brownfield in the US would require the old plant to be torn down completely or buid a new greenfield plant beside it. Regardless of UAW, even just in construction cost, regualtory environment, labour availability etc. it would be an inferior investment when done in the US.

          And even if all was equal, you will not see US management keen on building sucha plant in the US becuasa of mere country risk management reasons - the same reasons why BMW or now Volkswagen build latest generation plants in the US and not in Germany (hedging US Dollar exchange rate risk is the main reason).

          Though I believe that the UAW is a significant part of the Big 3's problems, the message of the video does not capture the situation properly.

          There are many sub-optimum plants in this industry and they are far away from being responsible for the existence of an auto-maker, just for the cost effectiveness in the single digit percentage range.

          The existence of a car manufacturer is determined on the design-board. 

          {"commentId":4233049,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"mwestenfelder"}
          • 3 votes
          Reply#5 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:54 PM EST
          {"commentId":4235592,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

          Though I believe that the UAW is a significant part of the Big 3's problems...

          Martin, I disagree. Yes, the propoganda over the past 30 years or so has led us to believe that labor is a drain on the success of industry. But a healthy, stable labor force will position a properly managed business optimally for success.

          I do agree that

          ... the message of the video does not capture the situation properly.

          The message of the video is only from the perspective of a greedy management structure. Let's contrast two companies.

          Toyota pays their chairman under $1M. Toyota offers good wages, and benefits that are greater in value than our Big Three. Toyota builds state-of-the-art factories in the workers can be safe and productive. Toyota is very successful financially.

          Ford pays their chairman close to $90M. Ford offers good wages and benefits, but are working to drive the compansation packages down. Ford also shops the world for locations that will allow them to capture cheaper and cheaper labor. Ford builds quality, but is very far behind in the designs and features that people want. Ford hesitates to construct cutting-edge factories that would benefit operations in the U.S. Ford is about to go broke.

          A thriving Middle Class in America will be the source of lasting prosperity. If we let personal greed kill the Middle Class, we lose much of our economic power.

          {"commentId":4235592,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
            #5.1 - Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:09 PM EST
            {"commentId":4239618,"authorDomain":"craig19"}

            I will agree with you that the big three's CEOs are slightly overpaid but do not the shareholders vote on their salaries? If all of the big three paid their coorporate execs nothing, how much of an effect would that have on the price of their automobiles? In a free market society, shouldnt an individual be allowed to let the market decide his/her worth? Do you really want the government to decide what everyone should be paid? I dont hear anyone complaining about what Oprah Winfrey makes. Alex Rodreiguez? Maybe more people could afford to go to the movies if actors werent paid so much. And they have the nerve to go on strike. What about the high cost of attending an American university? Why do we not ever hear liberals calling for a Senate investigation on the obscene cost of college tuition? BTW. Do you know who coined the term "middle class"?

            {"commentId":4239618,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"craig19"}
            • 1 vote
            #5.2 - Sun Nov 30, 2008 11:49 AM EST
            {"commentId":4300283,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

            Craig, you are not telling the truth, and just inflaming the conversation with questions that have no merit. Please see my post (#9) below. Thanks.

            {"commentId":4300283,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
              #5.3 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 7:10 AM EST
              Reply
              {"commentId":4297997,"authorDomain":"buffalo6692"}

              Let me clear  up a few misconceptions.  I am a UAW assembly line worker at a Ford plant in the U.S. making $ NOT $75/hour that Craig19 erroneously suggests.  I get Supplemental Unemployment Benefits to pay me when I am out of work, but this only covers 26 weeks.  So I am very motivated to get back to work when I am laid off. 

              To blame the Big 3 Auto crisis on the UAW is like blaming Obama for being black.  The UAW exists as a check-and-balance to ensure that middle class workers are treated fairly.  We need time off just like everybody else.  We need healthcare and retirement just like everybody else.  We need  unemployment benefits and safety rules just like everybody else.  And we need wage protection just like everybody else.

              My salary, while some say is high, has come only after much experience and training.  I have been at this job for almost 3 years.  In that time, my productivity has increased ten-fold.  Do I care about Ford's success?  Yes, because without Ford I would not have these wages.  Don't blame us for the current crisis.  Blame the greedy oil companies, fannie mae and freddie mac.

              Thanks for letting the little guy have a voice in this debate.

              {"commentId":4297997,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"buffalo6692"}
              • 1 vote
              Reply#6 - Thu Dec 4, 2008 10:27 PM EST
              {"commentId":4299992,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

              buffalo bob, it is an honor to have you in this debate. And what a contrast to some of the rants that make assumptions without first-hand knowledge or experience.

              And you are not the little guy; you are the main guy - the worker - driving industry. Thank you.

              {"commentId":4299992,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
              • 1 vote
              #6.1 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 6:11 AM EST
              Reply
              {"commentId":4298028,"authorDomain":"buffalo6692"}

              Looks like my previous posting didn't pick-up my wage.  I'm making $ not the $75 that Craig19 erroneously suggests.

              {"commentId":4298028,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"buffalo6692"}
              • 1 vote
              Reply#7 - Thu Dec 4, 2008 10:31 PM EST
              {"commentId":4298321,"authorDomain":"al-sledge"}

              I used to work for the Ford Aerospace subsiderary and about 30 years ago, worked in Detroit designing automated manufacturing in the Escort plant.  I was making $15 a hour, starting pay for UAW was $22.50.  Add fringe and overhead, this brought it up to nearly $50 an hour.  While we concentrate on what workers GET, it is more important what workers COST.  A cost today of $75 an hour is probably realistic or maybe low for UAW.  Other costs not seen by the public are engineering, tooling, accounting compliance, pollution compliance, retirement, etc, etc.  These all go into making the price of a car.  The state and federal goverrnment are complicit in this problem too.

              I also know GM has not made money on cars for several year.  If not for GMAC they would already be belly up.

              Maybe you want to talk about money the UAW UNION  President makes.  He gets a "fair salary?  How much does it cost each employee per paycheck to keep his job?

              {"commentId":4298321,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"al-sledge"}
              • 1 vote
              Reply#8 - Thu Dec 4, 2008 11:07 PM EST
              {"commentId":4300450,"authorDomain":"logdump"}

              That old 75 bucks an hour is propaganda from the Union Busters. Average take home pay for the UAW is around 57 Thousand a year much in line with what the Southern foreign auto makers make. There are many places on the web to find these figures plus GM is not charged for the cost of labor as that inflated cost is added on to the wholesale price of each vehichle. The Unions have taken a pay cut and permitted the big three to hire new employees at the same rates foreign companies do. This is just war on unions and it will probably work but when all of you are working for minimum you will realize that once they do cut their pay it will become the bench mark for the rest of the employed. Creative bookeeping can make any figure viable. This 75 bucks an hour has been posted from 65 bucks to a high of 83 bucks.

              {"commentId":4300450,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"logdump"}
                #8.1 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 7:33 AM EST
                Reply
                {"commentId":4300256,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

                Al, it comes down to issues that do not necessarily relate to the dollar amounts. It is easy to point at the total amount it costs to compensate and support an employee, but that is more a statement about the inflated prices of benefits like health insurance. Again, the health insurance company executives get compensated at an obscene level, to the detriment of the health care industry. For the line worker, the salary is the most important figure, since that is what it takes to live and support a family. And it is misleading the Vine readers to list engineering, tooling, accounting compliance, pollution compliance as part of the workers' compensation package. Those operating costs, costs of doing business, and production costs, but are in no way tied to the compensation of employees working on the line. Why are you trying to set our readers against labor?

                BTW, your question about the UAW president's compensation seems to be unfairly aimed at inciting anger toward the unions. You have failed to do some simple research before implying that the unions are driving up the cost of production.

                There are still hangers-on, like you, who argue that unless shareholders and consumers support unreasonable levels of pay for executives, the business will not thrive. It's a scam of unprecedented proportions. Now, if you happen to be one of those executives, I could see why you'd argue for a few people skimming revenues off the top. But it doesn't make sense for workers and professionals to endorse such a drain on our economy.

                Take a look at Toyota. The chairman makes under $1M per year. The workers are well compensated, including Toyota paying their health insurance. Toyota knows that a healthy, satisfied work force will result in better product, for a bigger market share. Of course, we all know that Toyota is tremendously successful.

                Please read more and think carefully about what you are writing. I mean that as constructive criticism that will help us all do better.

                {"commentId":4300256,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
                • 1 vote
                Reply#9 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 7:06 AM EST
                {"commentId":4302397,"authorDomain":"craig19"}

                With you it always seems to boil down to the salaries of the CEOs. Like I said if all the big 3 CEOs salary was reduced to nothing it would not reduce the price of their automobiles at all or at least insignificantly. Labor costs, benefits, and an antiquated business model held in place by the UAW to save jobs is the problem. I have been in the maufacturing business for over 30 years. I know how difficult it is to make a profit and I am tired of bureaucratic pinheads in Washington who never ran a business in their life sticking their noses in something they know nothing about. You say that Toyota is paying their health insurance. Is the worker paying part of the premium? I pay over $100 dollars a week toward my health insurance and that is half. My employer pays the other half. How much does the UAW worker pay towards his insurance premium? It is obvious that this is a bailout of the UAW more than the salvation of the American automobile. These UAW members are votes for the Democrat party and that is the bottom line. It is a baliout of the UAW to ensure that the socialists stay in power to continue their socialist agenda. A bailout would only postpone the day of reckoning. Bankruptcy, on the other hand, would spare the taxpayers and put the Big Three on a sounder footing for the future. Without bankruptcy, however, the Big Three will continue to struggle with labor contracts that have left them unable to produce cars cost-effectively. The United Auto Workers union made vague gestures toward reform after a meeting Wednesday afternoon, but offered few specific concessions. The union refuses to give up the work rules and product commitments that have hobbled the Big Three’s ability to shed jobs and eliminate brands in response to market signals. A bankruptcy judge could throw these provisions out and force the automakers’ unions to accept reality.


                {"commentId":4302397,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"craig19"}
                • 1 vote
                #9.1 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 9:35 AM EST
                {"commentId":4312894,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

                Craig, you're only reducing your own credibility by name-calling and broad generalizations that have no basis in fact. For example, you are using the word "socialist" incorrectly. I'm guessing that you've worked in management for 30 years, which would give you a different perspective, I understand.

                The difficulty of making a profit is either because of the lack of need for your product, or poor management in a market where there is a need. Certainly a healthy workforce does not make it harder to profit in business. The workers are the main source of a quality product. That's my point about Toyota. They value their workers. They are well managed, in a market where there is a demand for automobiles. They are making a profit.

                I'm still amazed at people who say it's too expensive to compensate the workers, when executive level management are draining vast amounts of revenues before even a gross profit can be tallied.

                {"commentId":4312894,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
                • 1 vote
                #9.2 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 6:37 PM EST
                Reply
                {"commentId":4302766,"authorDomain":"craig19"}

                The basic hourly wage received by a UAW worker in a Big Three plant is close to that received by a Toyota or Honda worker in a U.S. plant. The UAW-negotiated wage was roughly $28 an hour in 2007. For new workers, the hourly wage was lower; senior workers made more money. The major cost difference between UAW members and employees in foreign-nameplate factories in the U.S. comes in fringe benefits. The UAW has been one more of the more successful American unions in fighting for generous pensions and health benefits for its members.

                It is hard to compare the cost of fringe benefits provided to active workers, because foreign-nameplate auto manufacturers in the U.S. do not report all their labor costs in a way that makes a comparison easy. We do know, however, that active workers in a Big Three plant are considerably older than their foreign-nameplate counterparts, meaning the cost of funding their pensions and health benefits are higher. Providing health benefits to a 55-year-old worker can cost as much as three times the money an employer spends on a 25-year-old, even if both workers are covered by an identical plan.

                Because the Big Three have an older workforce, their employee benefit costs are higher than those of their foreign-nameplate competitors. This would be the case even if both foreign and domestic producers offered the same benefits packages. Historically, however, the UAW has negotiated better benefits for its workers.

                {"commentId":4302766,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"craig19"}
                • 1 vote
                Reply#10 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 9:48 AM EST
                {"commentId":4312944,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

                Thanks for the reality check, Craig. It sounds like a fair system, when loyal employees are compensated for building the company in a positive direction.

                {"commentId":4312944,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
                • 1 vote
                #10.1 - Fri Dec 5, 2008 6:40 PM EST
                Reply
                {"commentId":4379163,"authorDomain":"morrykorman"}

                Having read all the previous comments -- I have not yet read one very important statistic.  And that is that the labor cost of GM, Ford & Chrysler automobiles is about 10% of the total cost of making them. Would someone please tell me where the rest of the 90% is going?

                {"commentId":4379163,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"morrykorman"}
                  Reply#11 - Wed Dec 10, 2008 6:41 PM EST
                  {"commentId":4560426,"authorDomain":"ziggrl"}

                  I worked 25 years at an automotive supplier here in Detroit until last month.  We had a joke that went like this:

                  "General Motors provides excellent wage, health, pension, tuition, and 401K benefits for hundreds of thousands of of UAW employees.  And, oh yeah, they make cars too."

                  {"commentId":4560426,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"ziggrl"}
                  • 2 votes
                  Reply#12 - Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:07 PM EST
                  {"commentId":4561072,"authorDomain":"philip-6"}

                  It is endemic in our culture today that we don't take seriously the prosperity of the American working family. Even we workers are taught to believe that the good (not excessive) life that we earn is somehow a privilege; a life undeserved.

                  Sad. We need to de-program the Middle Class to stop dragging itself down. It could just as easily be said that General Motors provides excessive wages, health, pension, tuition, retirement plans, bonuses, golden parachutes, stock options, private jets, and lavish benefits for executives. And, oh yeah, they make cars too.

                  That's no joke.

                  {"commentId":4561072,"threadId":"430422","contentId":"2160483","authorDomain":"philip-6"}
                    Reply#13 - Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:39 PM EST
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